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+--- Thread: oldtime topic time... (/showthread.php?tid=101866)
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RE: oldtime topic time... - CardBoardBox - 08-06-2017
Aquavit wrote a very good piece in this thread. It is either above this OR (if this post is on page 2) SEE THE BOTTOM of page 1.
I write/post this here Because of my sentence #1 AND I think it worthy of being read, plus the fact
I had just deleted a duplicated posting of mine causing his post which was the top of page 2 to get slide into page 1.
Lembert's bus and the giving of 'gifts' certainly has downsides overlooked. In my personal life, if I have something for a baby or a dog, I give it to the parent. I hope you see the wisdom in this.
Tangent; when I read the expensive gift situation, I am reminded of a lady that was so proud of bringing down NEW bed sheet sets costing $20 each. I do know how sheets (and shoes) ARE appreciated, but she could not grasp that good used bed sheets would be equally appreciated*** while also stretching her dollar.
*** trust me on this. 'good' means used but in great shape.
If you are talking about blue jeans / clothes, they must appear as new. Jamaicans are very proud people.
RE: oldtime topic time... - Oldtimer2 - 08-07-2017
my kids shop at Value Village and one is a Lawyer , one is a school superintentent , one is a geologist and one is a Canadian rep for Sheraton hotels . They aren't proud...or are they thankful ????
RE: oldtime topic time... - JonTom - 08-07-2017
I don't give to begging (neither $ nor food nor drink). There was a time
in life where I did, but the nagging doubts of whether I'm helping vs. abetting the root cause in the long term and/or appeasing some sense of my own guilt led to the rule of 'just never give'.
I won't disparage or dispute the motives of those that do.
I do contribute to charities (time and/or $) and, in respect to JA, admit to bringing school supplies for an acquaintance's kid.
I hadn't kept up on the One Love Bus thing and hadn't realized it was more recently advertised to include "shanty town" stop (whatever one's definition of shanty town is). I've never been and don't know Lenbert so I'll refrain from comment on the tor itself. However, this bit about charities not helping that community:
JamaicaJeanne " ... Lenbert says that many of the organizations do not reach out to the poorest of communities ..."
and
(08-06-2017, 06:29 PM)Aquavit Wrote: ... Lenbert perpetuates the myth that traditional charitable organizations "overlook" this particular neighborhood and its residents - and that is not true at all.
Just curious how one would know? Does he say this on the tour (which I doubt either of you take). I'm not questioning the veracity, rather, wondering how does one learn these things? Maybe it is a common discussion in town.
=========
different topic 1:
Kylake " ... was a revolution by the people and they got their country back ... ". Would you really call JA's path to independence a revolution?
For 2 reasons I'd use a different term. 1) it happened over a relatively long period of time. 2) I attribute a large part of it to the overall decolonization world wide effort as opposed to a revolt.
=========
different topic 2;
OT, I've never shopped at a "Value Village", but I think that just makes them smart shoppers.
RE: oldtime topic time... - jamaicajeanne - 08-07-2017
Aquavit, very eloquent post.
JonTom,
Yes, there was some discussion elsewhere regarding the stop at "Shanty Town" and many came away from the ride and relayed their concerns regarding that specific stop. Others joined in to explain that Lenbert feels that the local organizations do not reach out to that community.
I have ridden with Lenbert once and do not care to go again.... nothing against Lenbert...I mostly do not like loud crowds and sharing seat spaces, LOL. I have never been to wherever "Shanty Town" is located.
I feel that Lenbert had a genius idea but I also feel that it has possibly grown bigger than expected. When I come to Negril, I prefer to volunteer my time and my donations to St Anthony's. I firmly believe that Father Jim and St Anthony's have a grasp on the needs of their community.
RE: oldtime topic time... - Westenders - 08-07-2017
Aquavit I totally agree with all you said in your post.
I quite like a charitable services approach in my home city to the homeless and beggars.
As stated on this thread and others they believe that begging and giving to beggars does not help a person to change their situation.
In the UK we have a pretty good welfare state, but the vulnerable struggle with getting into a routine that helps them access this support.
The charity sells food vouchers to us folks who would potentially give to beggars, so instead of giving them cash, you would give them a food voucher (apology for using them as a term) when the person who has been given the food voucher turns up for a meal, the charity has a team of advice and outreach workers who can then support that person to access the right support to make meaningful change.
I love this approach, and it would be great if st. Anthony's or lenbert could evolve to this style of supporting people to support themselves, which is long term more sustainable for all.
Adult illiteracy is still such a profound issue that I am hoping to take a sabbatical in a couple of years and teach workshops for a few months. This is one of my five year goals, not for me, just because I see how this affects people's access to opportunity.
More and more the people we know are leaving Jamaica . Dozens over the last few years. That's not counting those passed away as victims of crime.
Tourists mainly see the begging, but many of us also see the real struggle to survive life in Jamaica. It's not easy' as locals would say.
OT I get your point, you are a great father to your successful family. I see the difference with your point is that you and yours have choice, so pride is not an issue. I can relate, I often feel that one of my greatest gifts is that I also have choice. We are not rich by any means, but we are comfortable.... I also like the value type shops, but if I could only afford to shop in them then I may feel differently. In my line of work, I work with people who could only aspire to shop for anything other than the basics in life.
Pride is definitely a key value of these people who live in poverty.
Thinking back to Jamaica, some folks have the most rundown of houses, but those homes are clean, the children are clean and those yards are swept daily.
To me Jamaica is a poverty trap for many, how the hell do you escape from some of the suffering?
Negril is lucky compared to some areas, especially in country.
Got to start at the top with the ill equipped people running the country, who haven't a clue on how to grow this land.
Cardboard box, I get you on your point. In a country with such dire child abuse stats, tourists on that bus are contributing to in effect ' grooming children' to change their behaviours and risk awareness around strange adults. It's not just developing beggars, not all tourists are good people. People need to stop engaging with children they don't know in this way. How would you / I / we feel if this was our children. It seems like it's not till a child is harmed from a tourist who abuses them, or from falling under lenberts bus wheels will people really stop and think, and then that will be too late.
There is just no big picture thinking from the ill informed and misguided.
Kylake Jon Tom I think the people's revolution was more due to GBs shedding of its colonies. Which I agree with based on the dire history of my country and how it 'acquired' Jamaica.
I really do think that an uprising is necessary, peaceful of course. Jamaica need to look to models of growth in more developed countries and buy in the expertise it is clearly lacking. No more jobs for the boys, just based on party affiliation.
RE: oldtime topic time... - Oldtimer2 - 08-07-2017
You are so right.I worked very hard from a young age and I realize that it is not easy . My kids were not handed things on a platter they had drive . It certainly isn't an easy ride in Jamaica . But money doesn't seem to be the motiviater (sp). Even with good jobs the abstentism is brutal. Babies everywhere . Parties way too late to work the next day etc. I realize I sound like a broken record but it is what it is .
RE: oldtime topic time... - Aquavit - 08-08-2017
Westenders, I LOVE the food voucher program in your country, especially the fact that social workers are on hand where the meals are given to offer additional support for these folks. We have a terrible homeless problem in San Francisco and I'd love to see something like that in place...truthfully I've been begged on more on the streets in San Francisco than I have ever been in Negril. Difference of course being children doing the begging - 100% of the beggars in San Francisco are adults.
Like Jamaicajeannie said, I have read a lot of reviews, stories, trip reports that have been about or included One Love Bus experiences. The recent stories have all included this "Shanty Town" experience and most of those were not comfortable with this stop. As far as how local charities operate and where the money goes, I'm more familiar with that in knowing several Rotary members since the Negril chapter started up, I have volunteered for them and have donated to them. I also know some of the programs Rockhouse Foundation does and have met their Executive Director. This is how I know that these organizations do work that reaches out to ALL neighborhoods in the Negril area. It is possible that Lenbert might be hearing form the more "opportunistic" folks in that part of the Divers Village (aka, "Shanty Town") have told him these service have not been made available to them because to receive these services one has to want to go to school, get a good meal, learn to read etc. It takes some action on the the person's part. Its a lot easier to just get cash in hand or expensive gifts directly from tourists who's heart strings are pulled, mostly by the children.
The bottom line in any situation like this and attempting to correct it is education, and we know that is sorely lacking in Jamaica. It is at the root of the problems we are having here in the US. So, if a tourist came to me and asked what they could do to help, my first suggestion would be to spend a little time at the school working with the kids.