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Jamericans
oldtime topic time... - Printable Version

+- Jamericans (https://jamericans.net/yellowboard)
+-- Forum: Jamaicaholics (https://jamericans.net/yellowboard/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: Message Board (https://jamericans.net/yellowboard/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Thread: oldtime topic time... (/showthread.php?tid=101866)

Pages: 1 2


oldtime topic time... - Oldtimer2 - 07-31-2017

While I was secretly checking some other sites I noticed a thing about begging . Where do we stand on that ? I'll buy almost any one a meal but not money for crack or nightlife drinks . Kids ,never !!!! I would like to see some of you old guys/us comment on it . The farther out the beach you go the less of that kind of stuff goes on . I think Bobby called it marginalized ??????? The Guardsmen are the best thing the hotels/bars started doing .


RE: oldtime topic time... - jamaicajeanne - 07-31-2017

There have been several long running discussions regarding "gifts" both on the other board and in Trip Advisor and they are related to the One Love Pub Crawl. As for the crawl, I think Lenbert's business is an interesting and fun service....it certainly takes visitors to off the beaten path and gives bars in the West End some business. However, people have also been bringing "gifts" for the kids along the route. Of course the kids are excited and come running for the bus creating an unsafe situation, but if folks are leaning out of the bus handing out money or toys....well, it is just not going to stop unless you stop the gift giving.

When we visit Negril, I like to find a "mission" and my favorite is St Anthony's kitchen. Lenbert says that many of the organizations do not reach out to the poorest of communities....so, what to do (thinking you are helping)?

I for one, am not totally enthralled with 7 Mile Beach and the hustlers and higglers are the reason why....i just do not enjoy all of the hustle and bustle of the beach. The last time in Negril, we staying mid Long Bay. A walk down the beach towards the West End and we had school age kids asking...Hey, Can I have a dollar? When I asked why they were not in school, I was told "because, we can make money here"...hmmm, not a good situation.

I an not an "oldtimer" on this board, but I firmly believe that teaching kids to beg instead of going to school is very sad. I will continue to find my "mission statement" each time I go. But, I will not hand out money or toys to kids. I firmly believe that Father Jim and St Anthony's kitchen know the needs of the community and I will continue to support those efforts. I think that Lenbert's business model is genius, however, I will not participate in the "giving". I am with you OT2 and will buy anyone a meal, but I am also going to sit with them and chat...not just hand over money.


RE: oldtime topic time... - Oldtimer2 - 07-31-2017

Well said !!!


RE: oldtime topic time... - Westenders - 07-31-2017

I have seen a number of those discussions over time on TA too.
I do think that the one love bus is a good business model for lenbert, however I do also think that some confusion has developed too in that some believe that this trip is charitable in its main purpose and a way of getting to know off the beaten track places.
This trip is a business, and the owner receives payment through tips and from commission from the bars that are visited...hence the drink price hike. I'm not criticising this at all, as it's the mans business, and it's a good livelihood, but there seems to have developed a movement by some that the trip is a chance to help.
My concerns with this development is that it's teaching kids that it's ok to approach strangers and often drunk and high adults who will then give you stuff for nothing. The potential risk of that seems to go unnoticed by all, which blows my mind.

The issue of begging is multi layered and comes in many more forms than the kids on the street who beg.
I don't think it's a case of kids not going to school so they can beg. It's still costly to send your kids to school, and many kids don't despite government programmes like PATH and charitable organisations, who cannot reach everyone.

Most on here have a solid understanding and knowledge on the challenges of life in Jamaica. Begging is one way of obtaining money in a country that lacks commitment and care for all of its people. In some cases what are people to do. ? 

If Jamaica had a better infrastructure that addressed the poverty of its people in a meaningful way, then maybe some of these social problems would improve.
I don't know what'bobby' was referring to as marginalisation, but I agree with his use of the term ( never thought I'd say that lol) but the youth of Jamaica are not invested in, valued or supported and encouraged to reach their potential. The result is what we sadly see, hear and read about.

Absent mothers, absent fathers, parents who work long long hours every day, and parents working crap jobs in foreign all add to the problem. Just my opinion. 
The kids are dragging themselves up. It's so sad.

The responsibility placed on, and the reliance on friends and relatives who live in foreign to send money, build houses, pay school fees, pay medical bills is massive and probably the biggest source of income outside tourism. Some argue this is a form of begging or dependence.

It's hard to say no to the young children who ask for money. I hate it. It's such an ethical dilemma.

But the hustlers, gigolos and con artists are easy to tell to jog on.

I absoloutely believe that Jamaicans need a people's revolution . Until the masses say enough...no change will happen sadly.


RE: oldtime topic time... - kylake - 07-31-2017

Nice topic OT!

I feel much the same as you. I will buy a meal, a beer, etc but I don't just give out money because they ask for it. Unless you really know the person who knows what the money will really be used for as you said, drugs, etc.

Jamaicajeanne, we have gone on the One Love crawl multiple times. Lenbert is a great guy and has done many things to help smaller businesses, the needy and gets people out of the compounds like Sandals, Beaches, etc (which is great). He has even started classes to educate they youth in things like wedding planning in hopes some of the AI business can be more local to support local folks.
You mentioned giving gifts to kids. Well I am certainly guilty of that. My wife was a teacher and could get discontinued books. I would take them and hand them out from the bus. That said Lenbert would always be on a side road in the community (not the main road) and no kids would have to cross any road to get the books they simply walked up to the bus that was parked on their side of the road. I also would buy reading glasses for the older folks and hand them out. I mean you can get those here for a buck and I would get various prescriptions, 100, 125, 175, etc. Most of the older folks knew the prescription they needed.
When we first started riding their might only be 4 or 5 couples. His business has grown and now it seems the bus is extremely over crowded and we stopped going.
Last time we did ride we went with some people, that like OT and others, on this board really knew the running's in Negril. They asked Lenbert to stop at Rag-a-Bones aka Red Dragon and he did. It was a place we had never been to before and the owner when I talked to him said Lenbert would stop their if you asked him to but they would "not" raise beer prices. We also went to some other place past Just Natural, small bar on the rocks with blow holes in the rocks and a rough sea and I believe he did raise prices as Lenbert had to have a discussion with him before we could go to the bar.
That is when I saw the other side of the business. Like Westenders said it is his business and of course he has to make money to stay in business but the over crowding plus pricing has made me question the crawl.
Since we didn't go last year I cannot commit to what is going on now, hopefully all for the better as Lenbert really is a great person!


Westenders, the things you point out are a serious problem for sure. Not sure how that is fixed? There was a revolution by the people and they got their country back but like many other nations that did the same the end result has not been so good. Would it have been better in the long run if they had stayed under some other countries rule? In some ways maybe, in other ways not so much. It is just a shame to see a country that was depressed by an overlord get freedom and then squander it under a differing type of political overlord of their own country.

Well just my 2¢


RE: oldtime topic time... - jamaicajeanne - 08-01-2017

Kaylake,
I did not mean to suggest that Lenbert is not a great guy. I actually think his business model is genius....we too have ridden with him.


RE: oldtime topic time... - kylake - 08-01-2017

(08-01-2017, 08:28 AM)jamaicajeanne Wrote:  Kaylake,
I did not mean to suggest that Lenbert is not a great guy.  I actually think his business model is genius....we too have ridden with him.

Jamaicajeanne, I never took it that way. Just wanted to point out that in my experience he was always on a side road in the hood so to speak when I gave out stuff. The over crowding part is what worries me more than anything. Great guy and great business but needs to limit the crowd to what that bus can safely hold capacity wise.


RE: oldtime topic time... - CardBoardBox - 08-02-2017

wrote a reply, saved it as a draft, and no where can I find instructions of where it disappeared to.
Wrote how 3 children panhandle on the beach, asking for $ for school, but it was obvious (from our discussion) they had never attended a school. Local source said their rasta dad made them panhandle and beat them if they didn't come back with any/enough $. Note my source - an acquantaince from Negril.
Wrote how it upset me that one stop (photo accomp) was at a private house (aka unlicense bar/business IMO) on the Pub Crawl. Also isappointed that some bars are not visited on the West End by the bus and that I attribute it partly to "not enough $ incentive.)
What started out as a donated bus to provide free rides (so I read) was always going in the wrong direction - for years. Funny. That was before the Pub Crawls began.
Kylakes comment about rulers/overlords and independence and the sorrowful results got my blood boiling since this seems so true in many places. It's a job, one where they can dispurse favors, money, get their own agenda done, and live high on the hog. The people who are most qualified to govern wisely don't want the job.
Opinions and conclusions are based on the (my) level of knowledge.


RE: oldtime topic time... - CardBoardBox - 08-02-2017

addendum, on purpose so I can delete it, as it is about South Africa and this board should be about Jamaica.

trivia
 There was one good result in a politically change country - when South Africa rulership went from white to black, they didn't just dispurse jobs to friends -- they hired qualified (and white) people for responsible positions/advisors. This is circa 1980 and I can not quote any sources but from someone living there when I visited; (his sentiments) 1. the picture presented (in the US press) was very biased, and 2. the divesiture (withdrawling of investments) by US companies and investment firms was very wrong and hindered the changes the world was clammering for.

So many years ago, but remember reading that there were buses for whites and buses for blacks? My business associate there said that anyone could ride in the white bus, but there was a fare difference; 40 cents for the white bus and 2 cents for other bus. Was he lieing to me?

re Jamaica,
BTW, panhandling, or begging for money, is the only option for some people on the island. It seems wrong and is annoying to the tourists, and I wonder/worry, if they are doing this at age 20, what are they going to do when they reach 40.

I wrote once that the tourists arriving by boat to visit the craft market were approached agressively by locals , leading to 60% not wanting to return to the island. The government was aware of this but the newspaper implied that the locals were doing what they did in order to surive, hence no crackdown by officials.
Negril on the other hand DID clamp down in the 90's on the beach, which was a blessing. I recall every few minutes someone would walk over trying to sell me something. Got tired of saying no thank you.


RE: oldtime topic time... - Aquavit - 08-06-2017

The begging issue has been discussed ad nauseam on Facebook, Trip Advisor and that other place.

Let me preface by saying I've never been on Lembert's tour, and probably never will. Not that there is anything wrong with it but I don't really like being in the midst of crowds of drunks (unless they are "my" drunks lol) and all of the places he goes I've been to and paid less for a drink.

The original premise behind this tour was to expose folks not familiar with the West End to the smaller locally owned bars up and down West End Road. On some level this was accomplished when he was taking folks to No Limit Bar, PeeWees, and now Sunset Bar, places that even tourists familiar with the West End might not have visited if it had not been for this tour. Based on reports I've read about the tour more recently it seems the focus isn't so much on locally owned and small but he still does a good job of seeking out those places to turn people on to that they wouldn't go to necessarily on their own, for example the Sunset Pub which is more in my neck of the woods Deep West End.

I've observed over the years since the tour became so popular that kids from all over the West End would follow the bus and hang out at various stops begging or selling little bracelets or candy bars to the tourists. And most tourists would oblige, giving them a dollar or two or three. Word gets around easily when a group of people are easy marks in that way and more and more kids started to join in.

Now he makes this "Shanty Town" part of his tour. The impact of taking a bunch of tourists into a squatters neighborhood (the neighborhood is actually called "Divers Village" by the locals) can be shocking - most have never and will never see that type of "poverty" in their lifetimes. Rich-Guilt can be an overwhelming emotion. What they do not understand is that this is in no way a "shanty town" - if you've ever been through the shanty-towns of Montego Bay or Kingston you'd know that this "shanty town" looks like suburbia in comparison. What they don't understand too is that often squatters will steal electricity, internet and water from their neighbors who have accounts and legitimately pay for those services but the tourists only hear about how they don't have running water in their cottages (many don't - but many actually do). Lenbert perpetuates the myth that traditional charitable organizations "overlook" this particular neighborhood and its residents - and that is not true at all. Rockhouse Foundation, Sandals Foundation, Rotary and other organized charities do in fact provide services for the resident of this and many other neighborhoods throughout Negril and the surrounding areas. Still....tourists now bring wads of cash, clothing, shoes, games, electronics with them on what is supposed to be an excursion promoting local businesses to hand out. He has turned his business into a mission.

I've heard of people being mobbed, stuff being grabbed out of their hands and fights breaking out amongst the children AND the adults over "stuff". Pretty unpleasant for a bar-hop tour.

Lenbert is a good guy and he wants to support his community which is all fine and good and he can certainly do that separate from his tour and without causing a feeding frenzy amongst the residents of this neighborhood. He can set up his own charity, accepting the same gifts and distributing them himself in that neighborhood.

When well meaning people randomly hand out cash and gifts to people they do not know but believe to be suffering the wrong message is sent to the youth. It perpetuates a problem that Negril already has with hustlers and beggars when they see that they do not need school or job training and the quick money hit and instant gratification by accepting stuff from guilted out tourists is much more lucrative.

Now, most visitors to developing countries do not take this into account - not at first. But like I said, this has been discussed ad nauseam and still they come on Lenbert's tour weighted down with stuff to hand out...and that's where their "charitable act" turns into a selfish act - out of guilt, out of wanting to be the "hero" but all they are to these kids are walking ATMs. The "friends" they so selflessly bring presents for each visit view them the same way. No presents? No friend. So it does annoy me when I read posts from people who detail how much money or how many iPads or X-Boxes they bring down to hand out knowing full well there are organizations to which they can donate money to that do things like make sure kids are fed, able to go to school and that their schools are kept up with maintenance, books and supplies. These organizations run a soup kitchen for people who are legitimately hungry...they provide services that include medical and dental check ups. The tourist handing out candy because "they like to see the smile on the kids faces" are contributing to a lifestyle of ill health (diabetes is pretty rampant in Jamaica) not to mention those toothless smiles they will eventually get.

Poverty Inc. is a great movie and it does a great job of explaining this social dilemma facing Jamaica and other developing countries. Donating money or your time to any of these organizations though go much further in helping stem the tide of poverty in these places in a much more constructive manner. To the guy/gal boasting about the X-Box he brought down for his/her's "friend's" son....take a few hours out of your vacation to tutor the kid or to help out in the soup kitchen to feed that kid. Charity is about self-sacrifice, not about self gratification.